Author Topic: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)  (Read 10346 times)

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2008, 06:55:36 PM »
I love a good smackdown.  This one's not as funny as the Friedman one, but it's thorough.

http://www.tnr.com/story_print.html?id=69067f1c-d089-474b-a8a0-945d1deb420b




I saw her speak last night and it made me revisit this thread and the review in TNR.  Klein's response:
www.naomiklein.org/articles/2008/09/response-attackshttp://

yesno

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2008, 07:15:52 PM »
Yeah, I saw that.  I guess it just bugs me that people who were stridently against the Iraq war get no credit for that, because of some of their allies on unrelated issues.  Libertarian opposition to war is consistent, unlike that of the Democratic party with its periodic bouts of Clintonism.

She does not address the fundamental critique of her book:  that politicians of all stripes, left and right, use crises (and manufacture them) in order to push through their agendas.  This only seems sinister and wrong when you oppose those agendas.  And it imputes evil intentions to people who are acting in good faith.  There are plenty of evil things on the right to pick on, without having to invent new ones.

Btw, people have responded to her response, but they're just arguing about who said what when, which doesn't seem all that consequential.

I'm hoping that the financial crisis allows a democratic administration and congress to push through universal-ish health care.  Obama is on record saying that change is hard to achieve during good times, because most people are "conservative" in that they don't want to rock to boat.  Does this make us "shock social democrats"?  Do I believe in disaster equality?

yesno

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2008, 07:49:22 PM »
On the other hand, I mostly agree with this Klein speech:

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/6/naomi_klein

Which is that economic ideology, in and of itself, can be dangerous.  Trying to implement Marxism without paying attention to reality is dangerous, and trying to implement economic liberalism without paying attention to facts on the ground is dangerous.  I totally agree.  There's no such thing as a correct way to run society.  Some things work, some don't, and it all just depends.  People are not predictable economic actors and different people in different societies at different times behave differently.

I don't agree that this means that people who have promoted particular ideas are responsible when others who try to implement them outright ignore what those ideas are.  Marx is not responsible for Stalin.  Being a pragmatist does not mean that you have to denounce everyone who thinks he has a good idea and that it is correct for being an "ideologue."  The people who come up with policies and ideas are not the bad kind of ideologue, the people who keep trying to ram them through at enormous human cost, even when it's clear they're not working, are.

Sarah

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2008, 07:25:08 AM »
I don't agree that this means that people who have promoted particular ideas are responsible when others who try to implement them outright ignore what those ideas are.

Like Jesus, you mean?

Trembling Eagle

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2008, 08:28:37 PM »
to equate Chomsky with those other numbskulls
is the kind of false equivalency that deserves a belt buckle to the face.


todd

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2008, 09:54:59 AM »
to equate Chomsky with those other numbskulls
is the kind of false equivalency that deserves a belt buckle to the face.



I agree with Trembling Eagle.

Shaggy 2 Grote

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2008, 10:12:18 AM »
to equate Chomsky with those other numbskulls
is the kind of false equivalency that deserves a belt buckle to the face.



I agree with Trembling Eagle.

Me too, but who did that?
Oh, good heavens. I didnít realize. I send my condolences out to the rest of the OíConnor family.

Andy

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2008, 11:03:46 AM »
how have I been out of this thread for so long? It's so exciting.
Breakfast- I'm havin' a time
Wheelies- I'm havin' a time
Headlocks- I'm havin' a time
Drunk Tank- not so much a time
George St.- I'm havin' a time
Brenda- I'm havin' a time
Bingo- I'm havin' a time
House Arrest- I'm still havin' a time

Bryan

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2008, 11:12:07 AM »
I think TE is referring to this:

Oh, dear, why am I wading into this?

I equate Noam Chomsky and Naomi Klein (and Andrea Dworkin and Catherine MacKinnon) with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell (and David Horowitz and Michelle Malkin).

But b/guffcoat, though he may be wrong on this point, most certainly does not deserve a belt buckle to the face.

buffcoat

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2008, 12:34:05 PM »
Anybody wants to try to belt-buckle the buffcoat is welcome to come and try it.  See whatcha get.

The best thing about Obama's election (which I supported) will be seeing the loony right commit fratricide over and over again for 8 years.

The second best thing about Obama's election will be watching the delightful disappointment on the faces of the loony lefties as they realize that they aren't going to get what they want, and that they broke all those Starbucks windows for nothing.
I really don't appreciate your sarcastic, anti-comedy tone, Bro!

Trembling Eagle

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2008, 04:00:19 PM »
Anybody wants to try to belt-buckle the buffcoat is welcome to come and try it.  See whatcha get.

The best thing about Obama's election (which I supported) will be seeing the loony right commit fratricide over and over again for 8 years.

The second best thing about Obama's election will be watching the delightful disappointment on the faces of the loony lefties as they realize that they aren't going to get what they want, and that they broke all those Starbucks windows for nothing.

yeah that loony left
wanting healthcare for kids and to treat gays as human beings. They can just go to hell with that craziness huh?

yesno

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2008, 04:16:04 PM »

buffcoat

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2008, 11:54:31 AM »
Anybody wants to try to belt-buckle the buffcoat is welcome to come and try it.  See whatcha get.

The best thing about Obama's election (which I supported) will be seeing the loony right commit fratricide over and over again for 8 years.

The second best thing about Obama's election will be watching the delightful disappointment on the faces of the loony lefties as they realize that they aren't going to get what they want, and that they broke all those Starbucks windows for nothing.

yeah that loony left
wanting healthcare for kids and to treat gays as human beings. They can just go to hell with that craziness huh?

Exactly.

Wait, no.  How, exactly, do the Fairness Doctrine and Card Check provide healthcare for kids and treating gays as human beings?

We just got finished defending against right-wing nutters wanting to leer into our bedrooms and doctors' offices for 14 years.  Now we have to let Aunt Nancy and Uncle Harry tell radio stations what to say?

Everybody who's been out of power wants to overplay their hands as soon as they get back in.  It's the way of the world, and it's why the people who just got kicked out will be kicked back in before too long.  So it goes.




PS I'm a centrist NC Democrat who has never voted for a Republican in my life, but somehow I've become the FOT resident conservative?  This must be what George Will and David Brooks feel like all the time.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 11:57:55 AM by guffcoat »
I really don't appreciate your sarcastic, anti-comedy tone, Bro!

yesno

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2008, 12:03:47 PM »
Obama already wants to bail out the auto industry which is (pardon the wonkish term) retarded.

Bryan

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Re: Naomi Klein smackdown (of, not by)
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2008, 12:06:34 PM »

PS I'm a centrist NC Democrat who has never voted for a Republican in my life, but somehow I've become the FOT resident conservative?  This must be what George Will and David Brooks feel like all the time.

Don't let it get you down, Comrade.

 

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